HARP Loans with a Second Mortgage- Not If Your Second Mortgage is with Key Bank

The most difficult hurdles to overcome when helping HARP loan clients are typically placed by the homeowner’s existing lenders.

 Thankfully, the second mortgage companies have become much more lenient and willing to play ball. Companies are typically going to be okay with subordinating their loan if the homeowner is working on a HARP refinance on their first mortgage.  I’ll explain what this means, but it hasn’t always been the case.


If a homeowner qualifies for a HARP refinance on their first mortgage and they also have a second mortgage, they need permission from the second mortgage company to refinance.  This is called “subordination”.  Many of the lenders who hold the second mortgages were not approving subordinations on HARP loans when the program was introduced.

I’m happy to say that almost every major bank is now approving subordination agreements if the person refinancing is seeking HARP loan. I have personally seen Bank of America, Wells Fargo, Chase, Citi, Flagstar and many other banks or lenders approve subordinations over the past 4 months.  In fact, it has become so common that I expected all lenders to approve these subordination requests.

I was shocked to recently learn that Key Bank, one of the nation’s largest bank-based financial services companies, has a policy against subordinating. My understanding is that Key Bank will not subordinate a second mortgage above 100% value, or if the home value has decreased since the second mortgage was originated.  This has major implications for homeowners, and it’s a slap in the face to the government officials who fought to put the HARP loan into effect. The whole purpose of HARP is to benefit homeowners who have paid their mortgage on time and who need to refinance. We are talking about responsible homeowners whose tax dollars helped pay for this program. We are talking about responsible homeowners who need a fair refinance.  One of the most frustrating elements in this is that HARP refinances not only help the homeowners, but it actually IMPROVES the position of the second mortgage company.  There is no good reason for Key Bank, or for any other lender to not approve a subordination request on a HARP loan.

Let me illustrate a little further with an example. Let’s suppose I have a client who has a Fannie Mae 5/1 ARM.  They have a Key Bank home equity loan.  The adjustable rate loan is set to adjust in a few months and the customer wants to refinance to a lower, 30 year fixed loan which they’re qualified for under HARP guidelines.  They would be lowering their rate by over 1% and moving to a 30 year fixed.  Given the current circumstances, the homeowners would be lowering their payment and protecting themselves from a potential payment increase.  It is my understanding that Key Bank will not subordinate their second mortgage when all we’re trying to do is to fix the rate and lower the payment!  The alternative is probably that after the adjustment, the homeowner is forced into higher payment that he or she probably can’t afford and may be forced to let the home go. This appears to be bad business in every way possible.  They run the very real risk of damaging the borrower by limiting his or her ability to refinance.  Additionally, putting the borrower in financial distress will likely place a bank’s own equity in the home at risk. 

Key Bank has always been a specialty lender for home equity loans.  They have historically offered homeowners some of the best second mortgages available. This tradition continues today. Their rates and fees on second mortgages have been competitive for many years running. As you can imagine, many homeowners have second mortgages with Key Bank.

Seeing that there is minimal upside for Key Bank to have this position on subordinating for HARP refinances, I don’t think Key Bank intends to maintain this position for the long term, but there’s only so much time left for them to correct their position.  Considering that HARP loans have been extended until May of 2011, Key Bank and other lenders with similar positions have a short window of time to do the right thing and help protect their clients, as well as themselves, before the new deadline passes.

UPDATE 6/23/2010

Great news!  I’ve learned that Key Bank WILL approve subordinations on higher loan-to-value but they may not do it as easily as other banks. They will review all requests on a case-by-case scenario.  If the subordination benefits the borrower and does not increase the risk of Key Bank’s position, they will approve it.  I’ve received confirmation they’ve subordinated a 2nd mortgage as high as 190% of the home’s value!!

If you call Key Bank and ask their customer service rep, you likely won’t get the answer you’re looking for.  They’ll tell you the loan-to-value must be the same as the original loan which we all know is not possible if we’re trying to apply for a HARP loan.  However, this is to protect Key Bank’s position and not over promise what they can do for clients. 

When I spoke to Key Bank, they told me anything and everything you can do to support your request that it’s beneficial for both Key Bank and the client will be useful.  Here are some examples:

  • If your first mortgage is adjustable and it’s set to adjust soon, they will take your higher consideration on your request.  Include the terms of your old AND new loan on your subordination request so they can see the benefit
  • If lowering your payment is needed to prevent hardship, explain so.  Explain how your current payments are difficult to cover, give reasons and examples why and how the lower 1st mortgage payment will fix this problem.  Have the loan officer refinancing your first mortgage show a summary of your debt ratio so Key Bank knows you can’t afford the payments unless they do go down.
  • If you don’t have an adjustable rate mortgage that’s about to adjust or some other type of hardship such as a high debt-to-income ratio, then there’s a better chance you won’t get the subordination approved.  Remember that Key Bank wants to agree to subordination agreements that make sense for everybody.  Allowing you to refinance and increase your existing loan amount to cover closing costs does not benefit Key Bank.  I have not tried it, but it sounds like you’ll have a better chance of getting a subordination through if the new loan amount is the same or less than the old one since it doesn’t not affect the position of Key Bank’s loan in any way.
  • Key Bank loves new banking relationships, so if you haven’t moved all of your banking to them, offering this on your request may help in getting it approved

We’ll see how this plays out.  That said, it sounds like Key Bank is willing to approve subordination requests to the clients who really need it, which is fantastic.  I cannot commend Key Bank enough for taking this “Make Sense” attitude and helping homeowners in a market where homeowners need all the help they can get.

Related Posts:




The deadline for HARP loans has been extended until June 30th, 2012 (1-year).


Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are the views of the writer and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of Cobalt Mortgage.

134 comments to HARP Loans with a Second Mortgage- Not If Your Second Mortgage is with Key Bank
  • Hi good post, im currently studying this at college. I like your blog there’s some real helpful stuff on here. Will check back soon to see if you have posted anymore pages, thanks

  • howdy, I view all your posts, keep them coming.

  • Been reading for a few days now. It was very good and insightful information. BTW, I love your site design as well. I enjoyed reading it and hopefully you will write more soon. Do you have a newsletter? How do I subscribe to the blog itself?

  • Shawn,

    My newsletters only go to my current or past clients unless requested by someone. Feel free to send me your information on my “Contact” page and I’ll include you on the newsletter.

    Feel free to add me on your Facebook page or follow me on my twitter as well. You can find my Twitter handle on the sidebar of every page and my Facebook badge is on my “About” page.

  • Russell

    Wells Fargo is offering me a 5.35% loan (20 or 30 year fixed). Is this good? I currently have a 5/1 ARM that will readjust in Jan 2011. I owe $280,000 and the value of my home is $233,000. Can I shop around for a HARP loan? Or am I locked in with my current mortgage company (Wells Fargo)?

  • Russell,

    How much of the $280k is on a first mortgage? If it’s all one loan, then I would take Wells Fargo’s option. If your first mortgage is around 100% of the home value and you have a 2nd mortgage pushing you to $280k owed, you’ll probably benefit from shopping around.

  • Russell

    Thanks Keane…the $280k owed is all from the first mortgage….there is no 2nd mortgage…so you think 5.35% is a good rate?…thank you

  • Yes, I would take it. Not many lenders will do it at that value, so I would take it.

  • dan s

    A local lender here in MA is offering to 5.25 fixed, problem is our state run housing authority whom services my first loan won’t allow me to subordinate the second. they want me to pay off the second at time of closing. first: 258k second 8,250. LTV roughly 109% Any suggestions?

  • I’m guessing the 2nd mortgage is a form of down payment assistance? That’s typical.

    Unfortunately, it’s really in the hands of the housing authority who holds the 2nd mortgage. If it’s a Fannie Mae loan you’re doing for the first, you can structure the payoff date so you get to skip two full payments and get an escrow refund. If you know you don’t have to pay two payments and you’ll be getting a refund, maybe you can get a short term loan to cover the difference and just pay off that 2nd mortgage. Key Bank offers unsecured lines of credit and if you have a 401k, you can also request a loan on that as well.

  • Dustin

    I am currently in process of trying to refinance my first mortgage a 30-year fixed (freddie mac) at 175,000 for a house that is now valued at 183,000 (Used to be $225,000 3 years ago when i got the loans). The refinance is from 5.875 to 4.75% fixed for another 30 year loan with no cash out. Key Bank declined to subordinate because the combined CLTV would be 123% including the closing costs being financed into the loan per HARP guidelines. I followed your advice and sent a list of our monthly debts and a copy of my pay stub to Key Bank showing my take home pay and demonstrating how without this refinance my cash flow is approximately -$106 per month but because of the refinance it will save us $129 per month, thus making our cash flow positive again.

    It seems silly that we are lessening the risk by refinancing instead of doing a loan modification which we do qualify for if we choose to go that way. By modifying our loans it would increase the risk to Key Bank who is currently holding a $45,000 second mortgage that currently has only $8,000 in assets according to the appraisal value. I would rather make things work by not renegotiating contracts that I agreed to 3 years ago. I want to meet those obligations and take pride in my high credit score and that I have never been late on any debt obligation.

    If they further deny the subordination request, do you have any contacts within Key Bank that might be able to look at our situation? Or has anyone had any success with any particular individuals at Key Bank and do you have their contact info? Thank you in advance.

  • Dustin,

    I contacted a local Key Bank person who advised me of the advice I gave.

    I would try to escalade your call to management and explain how critical this refinance is for you.

  • Bonnie

    I am looking to re-fi my 1st mortgage doing the HARP through Wells Fargo (current 1st mort lender). My first balance is $228K. I also have a 2nd through PNC with a balance of approx. $59K. The HARP loan will reduce my interest rate about 1.5% and my payments about $260 a month on the 1st. I believe the current value of my home is about $270K – $280. My question is: Is this the best option or will I be able to do something with both loans? If I do the HARP on the 1st can I then re-fi the 2nd mortgage in any way? My 2nd has an interest rate of 9.25%(ouch!). Bottom line is I am looking to lower my payments in the best way.

  • Bonnie,

    You can do a FHA loan up to 97.15%-97.75%. In case the appraisal comes in light, be sure you can work with a lender who does both HARP and FHA so you can use the same appraisal for both scenarios.

    FHA loans have more upfront costs and monthly mortgage insurance added but FHA mortgage insurance on a 4 something interest rate on a 30 year fixed is way better than paying 9.25%.

    If your ownership plans are short term (5 years or less), you’re probably better off doing a HARP loan. If you have long term plans, the FHA option is better.

  • laurel

    With the harp program can you include your second mortgage in the refinance?

  • Laurel,

    You cannot. At best, you can hope the 2nd mortgage company will allow you to subordinate their loan, which is asking them permission to refinance the 1st loan.

  • Anwar

    Hi Keane,
    I am looking to re-fi my 1st mortgage by doing the HARP through Citi(current 1st mort lender)with 5 year ARM. My first balance is $251K. I also have a 2nd HELOC through Chase with a balance of approx. $89K. I believe the current value of my home is about $320K – $330K. My Mortgage Banker is asking me to ask Chase to see if chase can “waive the cltv requirements” or Chase will subordinate at 105% CLTV so he can do the FHA loan. What the best option for me or will I be able to do something with both loans? If I do the HARP on the 1st can I then re-fi the 2nd mortgage in any way? My 2nd has an interest rate of 4.25%. Bottom line is I am looking to lower my payments in the best way.



  • Anwar,

    Has your mortgage banker ever attempted to do a subordination with Chase? If he tells them you’re doing a HARP refinance on the first and the costs rolled in the loan aren’t too high, they should accept it. I haven’t had them turn down a subordination due to CLTV in months and your CLTV isn’t that high.

    You can only do a 5/1 ARM on your HARP loan if your loan is with Fannie Mae or if your Freddie Mac loan is already an ARM. Which of the two do you have?

  • Anwar

    Hi Keane,
    Thank you very much for your replay. NO, my mortgage banker never attempted to do a subordination with Chase. He is asking me to find out. My loan is with Fannie Mae. Is there any way I can combine those 2 loans. Is FHA is an option for me? My current lender Citi is not giving me a good rate for 5/1 ARM for HARP and closing cost is too high ($12000) even though I have good credit (742). For HARP you mentioned that we can use any lender who are participating in HARP but I called Chase and they are saying that they are only doing HARP for their customers. Who else can I ask? As you mentioned in one of your post that there are few lenders who do HARP and FHA both, how can I find that info?

  • Anwar,

    12k in costs for a $251k loan? Be sure to not include prepaids in your figures because that is abnormally high.

    HARP won’t allow you to wrap the two loans together.

    Most large banks will only do HARP loans if it’s with them. They technically CAN do them but a bank as large as Chase is busy enough just handling the loans they service. I’ve heard others state the same and I’m not surprised.

    You not only need a HARP lender and FHA lender, you should find what potential hurdles you face and ask specifically for a lender who can overcome all of them. For your scenario, you should ask for the following:

    -Fannie Mae lender who offers DU Refi Plus (Fannie HARP program for non-servicing lender) who offers OVER 110% CLTV DU Refi Plus loans (my calculation has you under 110%, but you always want to be prepared for a low appraised value)

    -FHA lender who does not have CLTV limits

    -Has experience with HARP and FHA loans requesting subordinations on 2nd mortgages.

    Both HARP and FHA loans do not have CLTV limits but lenders will put their own limits. Collectively shop with 2-3 lenders who fit the 3 items above and pick whomever you feel is best qualified with fair pricing. Remember that FHA allows you to roll in part of the 2nd mortgage and subordinate the rest. If you do a FHA 15 year loan, you can go to 90% of your appraised value, wrap in part of your 2nd mortgage AND not incorporate monthly mortgage insurance. FHA loans require monthly mortgage insurance on all loans LONGER than 15 years for at least 5 years regardless of the loan-to-value. On the flip side, they only require 10% equity on 15 year loans or shorter.

    If a 15 year loan is out of the question, you should be able to do a FHA loan up to 97.15-97.75% of your appraised value, pay off as much of the 2nd mortgage you can and have the rest subordinated. I’ve done this with Chase and they’ve approved it for me. This procedure usually makes the most sense when the 2nd mortgage we’re partially paying is a line of credit where the payment automatically reduces when we pay a portion of the balance off.

  • Mike

    Luv your website very informative. I just read that the HARP program now will do a refinance on 2nd mortgages. I currently, have a refinance through the HARP program on my 1st mortgage through Bank of America. My second who agreed to subordinate during the refinance is Interbank FSB. Do you know if they are participants in the 2m HARP program?

  • Mike,

    True HARP loans do not include 2nd mortgages but you can wrap two loans together on FHA loan.

  • Anwar

    Hi Keane,

    Thank you very much for your direction. I am in Chicago, Illinois. I am not able to find some one who can help me with my refinance. Do you do loans in Illinois? or do you know any one in chicago who can help me?


  • Rebecca

    Hello Keane. I am in the process of refinancing my first loan with Quicken Loans under making homes affordable. KeyBank absolutely REFUSES to subordinate the HELOC despite any and all efforts. Do you have any ideas?
    Thank you for this wonderful resource and for your time.

  • Anwar,

    Unfortunately, I only can assist clients on the west coast in certain states. If you have a hard time finding a lender, let me know and I can find someone for you.

  • Rebecca,

    Key Bank isn’t easy to deal with on this. Your loan officer has to stay persistent, get letters to explain the benefit, etc. Offer to switch your banking to them and explain how detrimental this will be to you AND them if not processed. If none of that works, email me and I’ll share more ideas with you.

  • I’ve had my 2nd subordination request through Key Bank get approved! I really hope they keep up the good work.

    For everyone who wanted to get a HARP loan and has a 2nd mortgage, this was a major hurdle until recently. Now, loans with PMI are the last group of homeowners who are being left behind. Please sign this petition and help everyone with a PMI serviced loan so they can refinance under HARP.


  • Stacey

    I was contacted by Chase to look into the HARP loan to refi my 1st mortgage of $227K. My credit score is 730. The loan officer told me I cant shop the HARP because Chase owns my loan so I can only go through them. Is that accurate? They quoted me a 4.75% rate with $2,884.99 in closing costs and no appraisal.

  • Stacey,

    If your loan has PMI, you have to go through Chase. If it doesn’t, then the loan officer is wrong. You can shop it.

  • Marshall

    FYI — In Virginia, there is a statute that preserves the first lien position of a refiance mortgage over the subordinate mortgage so long as the interest rate of the new loan is lower and the amount of the loan is no more than $5,000 over the original loan secured by the first mortgage. Seems to me, in most cases in Virginia, the refinancing lender shouldn’t even need the subordination agreement from the second lender.

  • Marshall,

    That’s amazing. I think every state should have that. Do you have a link?

  • Sean

    Just for clarification: I have a Freddie backed loan through Provident and when I inquired about a HARP loan they noted if I had a second, it would need to be paid off. Is this true for all HARP loans or maybe just a particular lenders guideline?

    Good info on the site as well.

    Thank you

  • Sean,

    That is not a requirement and you don’t have to apply with Provident unless your loan has PMI. I’ve done multiple HARP loans well above 100% of the home’s value without paying off the 2nd mortgage.

    Contact a Freddie Mac lender who doesn’t have this provision. You can email me if you want any referrals for a lender in your area.

  • Linda Wakefield

    Green Tree Mortgage Company gets a thumbs down when it comes to HARP loans….

    The Green Tree Foundation, which owns some of the “better loans” refuses to allow individuals to finance closing costs which exceed the amount owed on the first mortgage. Therefore, individuals have to pay ALL their closing costs and at certain times of the year, often thousands in taxes in order to obtain a HARP loan—even with excellent credit and a real need to refinance at a lower rate of interest.

    Green Tree is not that user friendly and would rather see individuals lose their homes than finance $5,000 in required points and closing costs, as allowed by governmental regulations. They refuse, under any terms, to deviate in any manner from this policy and claim their right to do so as the second lien holder. They are essentially setting up homeowners in a distress situation.

    If we are able to tighten enough to keep our home at the large current payment (which most likely is not possible,) believe me, we will never EVER do business again with Green Tree Mortgage.

  • Linda,

    Is this Green Tree’s restriction on approving a subordination or is your first mortgage with them?

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  • Scott Peterson

    I owe $609,000 on a Florida home that Zillow shows at $407,000. My first is with CitiMortgage, $375,000 @ 5.875%, $2425/month payment. My second is with Chase, 234,000 @ .25 under Prime (currently 2.99%)interest only payments at $600/month. I tried to modify my first with Citimortgage in 2009 and in 2010. In 2009 the y told me that I did not qualify because I have never been delinquent. Inb 2010 they tell me that the investor is not participating in the new Obama plan. Chase would not do anything because Citimortgage will not do anything. I even put in my hardship letters that I do not expect a principal write down, but just a lower interest rate. Chase recently had a 30 year mortgage at 4.00%. At that rate my payments would be less than I am paying now and I am only paying interest only with Chase for four more years when the repayment period starts. Any advise? I would really like to save my home, but I am working 75 hours a week to keep up with things now and I don’t know what I am going to do when the interest rates go up or the repayment period starts. I have never been late on any bills.

  • Scott,

    Did you research to see if you loan is backed by Fannie Mae or Freddie Mac? Instructions on how to do this is in the post above.

    If it is, you qualify for HARP. You also don’t have to use your current lender, as mentioned in this post. Chase likely will subordinate the 2nd mortgage. The first is still under the value of the home and you can go as high as 125%. The amount you owe on the two loans together is not considered in HARP. Not all lender support this particular guideline but several do.

    First find out if your loan is backed by Fannie Mae or Freddie Mac. If it is, then you need to find a HARP lender who can have a no-limit CLTV (Combined Loan-to-value). They’re out there. You can always ask me for a recommendation and I can find someone for you.

  • Dave

    I owe approximately $247,000 on a house work about $225,000. 1st Mortgage is about $160,000 with BoA. 2nd Mortgage is $87,000 with GMAC at 11.9%. My total payment is $2650 per month.

    What is my best option? I would really like to get that 11.9% rate down and lower my payment.

  • James

    My mortgage holder Wells Fargo set up a HARP loan “Streamline” 3 step plan for us. I discovered that we had a 2nd mortgage for a zero interest engergy loan I got through the state for a heating system 6 months ago – I missed that they put a lien on the property. THis has stalled the application – WF wants me to pay it off first. House is worth $310K and 1st is Fannie Mae $260K and 2nd is under $10K but funds are very tight as I was out of work. Wells Fargo says they won’t subordinate 2nd unless it is from a certain group of banks. Any suggestions or can you point me to someone who would work with me on the HARP outside of my Bank? I’m in Connecticut. Thanks….

  • James,

    You do not need to pay the 2nd unless the energy loan company is unwilling to allow you to refinance. The process is called a “subordination.” Call the energy loan company for their subordination requirements. If they will allow you to refinance, you don’t need to pay it off.

  • B in MD

    Hi Keane,

    Thanks for your website! I found it very informative. I wanted to follow-up to Linda Wakefield’s comments on 30 Nov regarding Green Tree (GT) Servicing’s refusal to subordinate its 2nd lien position. I have the same situation. GT refused to subordinate my 2nd @$34K. GT (over the phone and on their website) said they will only approve if the 1st is refinanced up to 100% of the original mortgage. In this scenario, no closing costs would be allowed in a HARP refi forcing me me to find $5,000 for closing that I don’t have in order to get a lower payment on my 1st balance of $244K. I have an 30 yr IO that will reset anually beginning in Dec 2011. What’s really telling is that my 2nd loan was transferred to GT within weeks from GMACM who had just modified my 2nd at my (repeated)request due to financial hardship. I think GMACM knew what they were doing when they transferred my loan to GT in order to prevent them from having to refinance my 1st to a lower rate (currently 6.125%). I think someone out to look into this practice at a regulatory level. What do you think? I have another question dealing with my ARM reset due in Dec 2011. The ARM on my 1st is tied to the LIBOR which is now hovering around 3%. Can you explain to me how my bank will calculate the adjustment assuming the rates stay around 3% and my current rate is 6.125. Should I expect a decrease or brace for an unaffordable increase? I think I’m really at a point where walking away might be a good idea! Thanks.

  • Linda Wakefield


    The Green Tree Mortgage we had was a second mortgage. Our situation is as follows:

    1. We have excellent credit (high 700s) Never late on a mortgage.
    2. In August of 2007, our home was valued at $650,000
    3. Appraised value of home is now $421,000
    3. We have a first loan with IndyMac. They don’t finance HARPs. First loan is $378,000 Original Mortgage rate 6.15% fixed.
    4. We had a second mortgage through GMAC. It was sold two years ago to Green Tree. Current balance on that mortgage $37,000. Second Mortgage rate 7.15% fixed.
    5. Total owed on house $415,000. Tried to get HAMP but was one quarter percent over on the income level. It took 1.5 years to get through THAT process. Had to apply for HARP through Flagstar since Indymac didn’t offer it.
    6. FreddyMac worked fast on approval of credit.
    7. Had loan offered through Flagstar for 4.99% .25 pts or $1,000.
    7. Took five weeks to get an appraiser out due to new government restrictions.
    8. Took Green Tree four weeks to answer regarding loan subordination.
    9. They refused to subordinate because they advise they do NOT finance ANY closing costs despite government program guidelines allowing it. Refused to finance over 105% though government guidelines allowed it.
    10.By the time they answered loan rates had gone up almost a point. To get the original loan, it would have cost us $20,000 in closing costs, including insistence on receiving six months in advance taxes and insurances which was a big part of the chunk. Points were $4,000, alone, not to include mortgage costs, title company costs, etc. (Doesn’t make much sense for a program designed to help people.) They required a few thousand of the loan to be paid down because the pay off amount was “different than the amount owed.” Somehow they calculated the amount owed to be a few thousand more, as well.

    We live in one of the ten highest counties with home foreclosures as we had rapid growth the past ten years. The home has dropped another $40,000 in the last month.

    Green Tree knew we were honest people who paid our mortgages on time as well as have always had excellent credit. They knew we would eat rice (or not eat) rather than not pay our bills…and the interest rate was at a pretty good chunk of change at 7.25%. They knew we would move into a one bedroom apartment (which we are intending to do) and rent our home out and pay the negative, rather than default.

    We will be downsizing far sooner than we ever intended and it won’t be easy not living in our home, but at least we will have our dignity.

    We were looking for a little comfort as we lost one family income due to a long term serious illness and limitations which excluded returning to the prior occupation.

    When we spoke to Green Tree we discussed the amount they were to finance was an average new vehicle loan…and we had excellent credit. They told us to pound sand.

    However, we are the lucky ones…many are way below the levels for refinance and far worse off than we are, thus the reason for all the home foreclosures. Times are pretty tough around here…in Northern California and Nevada.

    We will never ever do business with Green Tree again, nor with Indymac…all they had to do was follow government guidelines.

    BinMD, our hearts are with you.

  • BinMD,

    I’m sorry to hear your story.

    I don’t believe GMAC transferred the loan to keep you from refinancing. The way these securities are sold in the secondary market actually is profitable for them to refinance the loan. You can always contact me more about how that works if you like. I think the irresponsible handling of loan servicing got you where you’re at with Greentree.

    First, if you have the credit, maybe you can pay off that loan with an unsecured loan? It’s funny that I started this post by bashing Key Bank, but Key Bank actually has offered clients of mine $30k UNSECURED lines of credit (By the way, they’ve approved every high value subordination I’ve sent in the past few months!)Maybe you can pay off your 2nd mortgage completely and just refinance the first with no restrictions. Your thoughts?

    Your loan adjustments will be based on a few things.

    1.)A Floor rate will keep your rate from going down
    2.)Read your note from your original loan documents. It will be called an “Interest-Only Adjustable Rate Note” or something similar. Likely, your loan is tied to the 1-year LIBOR. Add this index to your margin (likely 2.25%) and this is what your new rate will be. If that figure exceeds your “initial cap”, your loan will only adjust up or down to that cap.

    Sounds really confusing, but it’s hard to explain in one comment. This blog post I wrote was written so consumers could figure out what they’re adjustable rate mortgage will do when it begins to adjust.


  • Linda,

    See the advice I gave B in MD. If your credit is in the high 700’s, you can definitely get an unsecured line of credit. Pay Greentree off and be free from their handcuffs! Whether you can do the refinance or not, it’s good to get them off your back. Maybe you can still get a HARP loan done in time.

  • BM in CA

    My first loan is $263,000 and second is $220,000. Home value is $511,500. CLTV is about 95%. What is better, doing HARP on first and refinancing the second or consolidating both with an FHA Refinance. Also, I prefer 15 years fixed, that’s what I have right now. Does a 15 year fixed FHA have CLTV of 90% or can it be more? And lastly, is it a good idea to payoff 40K off your mortgage using credit card so as to bring LTV ratio to 90%, credit card interest rate is about 11% . Please Advice.

  • BM,

    The monthly MIP on FHA 15 year loans isn’t that high. Guidelines don’t allow unsecured debt to pay down the balance. If you want to advance the money and let it season, that’ll work but hopefully a rate better than 11%.

    The MIP on that loan with a 15 year is only about $100 a month. I would probably go that route and just take the 15 year loan to the amount to take care of both mortgages.

  • Keane


    One more thing, the MIP rates are changing and they’re going up. I not only recommend doing the FHA loan, but do it now prior to the change.


  • BM in CA

    For FHA loan, do I have to contact my current lender(First lender or second lender)? OR can I get it through any bank that does FHA loans? Also, is there such a thing as a second mortgage HARP?

  • BM in CA,

    You can get a HARP loan and a FHA loan from an outside lender. You should shop the loan like any other loan.

    HARP does not include 2nd mortgages. FHA is likely your best choice.

  • BM in CA

    Thanks for your reply. My first loan is with Bank of America. The second was a home equity line of credit from citibank, which I got a few years after I bought the house. Later this line of credit was converted into a fixed rate 20 year home equity loan (Still with Citi). Today, I called Citi to see if I could combine both and do an FHA. The Rep. told me that if the second loan was originated at a later date than the first loan and now you are trying to consolidate them into one loan, this would be considered as a cash out and the LTV for a cash out is 75%. Is this true? If yes, what other options do I have? My CLTV is 95%

  • BM in CA,

    That’s not true. That’s the guidelines for a conventional loan. Any 2nd mortgage that hasn’t had cash-out in the last 12 months can be paid off in a FHA loan and be considered a Rate/term refinance. Further, FHA’s cash-out limit is 85%, not 75%. They’re giving you conventional guidelines.

  • SSJ


    I have a first with Wells Fargo interest only at 6.1% loan amount of $409,378. I also have a second through Chase for $48,650 at 9.25% interest only heloc, both loans will adjust in 3 years. My property is probably valued at about $350,000. Currently, I’m paying $2220. on my first and it doesn’t include taxes and insurance (another $425 a month)and $438. on my second. I haven’t been late on a single payment, but that may happen soon. My first is a Freddie Mac. What is the best way to lower my monthly payment. I’ve spent all my savings keeping up on payments, etc. and I’m thinking foreclosure will be the next step. Not sure where I need to start?
    thanks, for any ideas.

  • SSJ

    Also, do you have someone in California you would recommend contacting?

    Thanks again.

  • SSJ,

    You can work with any Freddie Mac lender but you’ll probably be best served by someone at Wells Fargo since they’ll likely allow you to finance a higher amount than anyone else in CA.

  • MJLS

    We were working with BofA on getting a 30 year fixed at a lower rate. We have an ARM right now and it is up in Oct. The 2nd is with PNC who bought National City who we had a 2nd with. They declined the subordination immediately. They would not even discuss it with me. The reason they gave us is the home value/loan was 108% combined. Also our credit rating is bad, due to hardship. Hense the reason we qualify to do a HARP loan. We have not missed any payments on our mortgage and never late. The credit score is bad because we went into settlement on our credit cards due to our job loss, 18 months of being unemployed. Is there anything we can do to get PNC to change the decline? Please help. Thanks.

  • MJLS

    Please send your above comments about Key Bank, to PNC Bank. We meet all the higher consideration points and they still declined us. They have zero interest in helping their clients. They told me, “We do not have to go by the same guidelines as your first.” They did not care if it was a better situation for us. Thanks.

  • Keane


    We’ve generally had good luck with PNC but I wouldn’t doubt that it the experiences vary depending on the situation and the person who’s helping you.

  • E

    Have same issue with PNC. They’re jerks. They won’t even discuss it and we’re at 95% LTV.

  • E,

    My experience is they’ll subordinate as long as you don’t add more than $5k to your existing balance.

  • Kim

    My bank does not participate in the harp loan. Can we try an obtain the loan through you even tough bay view loan company does not.

  • Keane


    I only personally work with clients in WA and CA state. If you email me your area, I can refer you to a lender in your area that I recommend.

  • Tracy

    We have a first and second mortgage originated on the same day with Chase. The second is not a line of credit; our loan was one of the last 80/20 written before the bust.

    We have recently been made aware that we qualify for HARP yet Chase seems reluctant to even discuss options on the second.

    What are our options, under HARP, that will allow for a refi of both into one mortgage??

  • Bill

    DCU wont help at all and denied harp refi .. DCU has gone down hill fast over the years and doesnt help its customers anymore.

    Digital Federal Credit Union

  • Keane


    Unfortunately, only 1st mortgages are eligible for HARP since the 2nd mortgages are not backed by Fannie/Freddie. If you’re near 97% loan-to-value, apply for a FHA rate/term refinance.


    Are they your 2nd mortgage holder or 1st? You can apply for a HARP loan outside your servicer.

  • bill

    Dcu is 2nd and will not sub. Been through this 3 times. For fha the ltv. Was 90% no that was changed this month to 85%.

    Ive applied for modificatio. 4 times, my pri loan was sold 3 times now with ocwen who never answers the phone or routed to india

  • Shawn


    I have a 1st lien through B of A, a 2nd position HELOC through B of A and 3rd position HELOC from Chase. I qualify for the HARP loan in every regard, but I am concerned Chase will not subordinate the loan once they find out they are in 3rd position because they did not close out the 2nd position B of A. I am under the impression the Subordination agreement is $250 from Chase with no guarantee’s.


  • Jeff

    I have been told with the HARP program, that it will not allow other debt to be paid off and thus my 2nd is not available under this program? How do I get the 2nd wrapped with the first under the HARP program since I do not want to go with an FHA and have PMI and closing costs?

  • Keane


    It’s ridiculous these lenders have limits on loan-to-value on subordinations if your new loan isn’t larger. They’re already above the limits the’re telling you about. By not letting you refinance, they only hurt themselves.

    I’ve had success, as you can read above, pushing the banks to subordinate these 2nd mortgages. I wouldn’t give up. Escalate the conversation if you can to upper management.

  • Keane


    Your situation is unique and you’re correct, Chase will collect a fee upfront. I would do my best to talk to someone at Chase before the request goes in. That said, we’ve had great success with subordinations including with Chase but I haven’t had to make the request with Chase in 3rd position. Your situation is very unique.

  • Keane


    You won’t be able to do what you’re asking. HARP is a first-to-first refinance program only. If you’re not willing to wrap your 2nd into the mortgage, you need to keep it the way it is and subordinate the 2nd mortgage.

  • Paul

    I applied for HARP loan thru chase. I have a second mortage with First Citizen. Using Chase’s estimate value of my home, my LTV is 75%. With my second loan, the LTV is 90%. Chase has approved my loan, however first citizen will not allow me to add closing cost to my refi! I have never been late on any payments for the first or second mortgage. Is there anything i could do to get first to approve the closing cost?

  • Keane


    It’s not an uncommon request for the 2nd lienholders to restrict the amount of fees rolled in the new loan. They are more likely to compromise if they feel not letting you refinance will cause a hardship, which risks the integrity of their loan. If you do need your refinance to avoid a hardship, do your best to illustrate this to Citizens Bank.

  • KF in NJ

    Hi, I was wondering if I could get your insight into my situation. My husband and I are trying to refi into a 15 year mortgage. We currently have a 1st mortgage serviced by Green Tree and a 2nd HELOC with PNC. Our LTV on the 1st is eeking by at 98-100% and with the 2nd we hit an awful 115%. The question is, if we refi using FHA DU Refi Plus, in your opinion, will PNC subordinate the loan?

    We don’t want any cash out, nor fees, aren’t “having trouble” making payments and have a perfect payment history and great credit 740+.

    “Logic” would say that PNC would want us in a 1st mortgage where we pay down principal FASTER in order to give them “more available” equity should we default/skip town (two things I wouldnt do).

    Your thoughts ….appreciated.
    KF in NJ

  • keane


    I’ve done subordinations with PNC with relatively low resistance. You should be fine.

  • KF in NJ

    Thank you for your prompt reply. Are you licensed in NJ perhaps we could work together.?
    Much appreciated.

  • SP

    Will Chase subordinate the loan with combined LTV 115%? How long will it take to get approval? Thanks!

  • Keane


    Unfortunately, I only work in WA and CA. Email me and I can refer a good lender to you :)

  • Keane


    In my experience, yes. Chase is sometimes slow but I haven’t had issues with getting subordinations through with them.

  • Deborah

    We have a 1st & 2nd with citimortgage and a 2nd with wells fargo. We called citi and wanted to refinance. They knew what the amounts were and ordered an appraisal. I can’t qualify for conventional as our ltv is 84%. Now I am asking citi to convert our appraisal to fha as I was not aware the ltv could be higher. Although I expressed my concern and made them aware I would need a higher than normal ltv. Can not the appraisal be converted if the appraiser is certified to do fha loans with having to pay for a whole new appraisal. I realize we may have to pay him for his time to convert it. Our 2nd mortgages are lines of credit, not fixed. It concerns us the interest may rise on them and we’ll have trouble keeping up. With college loans and such we have no extra cash for unexpected and would like the security of a fixed rate on all.

  • Keane


    There’s no guarantee that you can get an appraisal switched but lenders who know the value may be an issue should request an appraiser who can do FHA if needed.

    If you can’t combine them, remember that Wells is one of the lenders I’ve had better luck with subordination requests. Good luck!

  • Deborah

    Thanks for your speedy reply! I have been researching what I can about harp. From what I can tell fannie mae loans can go up to 85 ltv. Am I misreading and why is Citi telling they can’t go above 80 ltv? Should I travel to Citi and talk with someone in person? Or do I just have this all wrong?

  • Keane


    Yes, you can go to 85% if you qualify for the PMI at that loan-to-value. Remember that under these circumstances, you don’t have to use your current lender. If they’re not helpful, shop for another lender. I’m sure somebody would be happy to do this refinance for you.

  • Deborah

    Thanks Keane,

    Still working it out. Found some maybe beneficial info to share with others. Wells Fargo will subordinate our equity. Are even willing to keep our line of credit open for further use. Ha! I’m thinking we’ll go the harp way out with our 1st. As there is no pmi which would only adding to our burden. Fannie Mae says I can modify my 2nd if citi is a willing participant. Getting an answer from them is a waiting game. All I want is a fixed within reason interest on the 2nd. I did still lose an appraisal fee ordered by citi and according to other banks that I’ve shopped around with is unacceptable due to the comps adjusted percentages. So really it is bogus and no one but citi will accept it. I even had one banker tell me they are surprised citi is accepting it. I am hoping since they ordered it they have to. Our appraisal needed to come in at 17000.00 more to convert all mortgages into one fixed according to Citi, yet they approved us for a 20,000.00 credit card limit. Funny how they can see the logistics of loaning us unsecured debt, but not go up to 85% 17000.00 on our mortgage. Technically I could use the credit card, pay down the mortgage and refinance them all and become a more risky investment to them. As someone who has helped bail them all out it is frustrating that I know what is less risky than them. So for now all I have is that harp will only lower my 1st which is already fixed. No help on the 2nd which they also own. Can not be converted to a fixed without upping the interest by at least 3%. We have excellent credit, ltv 85%, no late payments and we get really no help. So like I tell them if there is a loss of job (which is likely with my husbands job), major illness and the interest rises, we will get underwater. Help us now before we become risky. I’m not asking for cash out, just close my line of credits, which I have paid down and can re borrow on. Refi what they have already loaned us. I will continue to try to work with them on the modification of the 2nd. Thing is I don’t won’t a reduction in what I owe, as the pm2 program is designed to do. I just want a fixed rate. Summing it up, Citi is still willing to make me a risky loan, but no help to make me a secure loan. In the meantime Cheers to their CEO’s bonuses as they have figured out ways to keep up the risky investments under government guidelines.

  • Deborah,

    The lack of help on the 2nd mortgage is hard to understand. The reason they were able to successfuly implement HARP is because it helps existing Fannie/Freddie loans stay with the agencies with little to no risk.

    Hopefully you can use the savings of the HARP loan to help pay down the 2nd faster? Just a thought.

  • Deborah

    Thanks Keane,

    Exactly what we plan to do. Ironic thing is Citibank’s answer to my 2nd mortgage dilemma? “Ah, you are current on your loan, wait until like the 3rd of January, call us back when you are delinquent and possibly we can modify it then.” Again wasn’t the intention of Harp was for us not to be a risk? Should anything change and I can contribute helpful info I’ll post it. Thanks for your contributions, speedy replies and hosting such a forum as this.

  • Deborah,

    I would be skeptical of doing a modification that requires you to be late when you currently qualify for a HARP loan now.

    If you have good credit, consider using an unsecured line of credit to pay off the 2nd mortgage separate from a refinance transaction. It’s possible you’ll get a better rate. Good luck!

  • tara

    PNC owns my HELOC and refuses to subordinate if the CLTV is above 80%. I qualified for a refi and would have reduced my rate from 6.25% to under 4%. Is there any recourse????

  • Deborah

    Getting back, still in the process of working it all out. Finally after speaking with our loan officer’s mgr, we are working on an fha with Citi. Don’t like having to pay the pmi for 5 years, but this would not be the harp program and we can lock in the rates at 4.25 fixed. This makes us rest easier as the interest rates will rise and I’m thinking sooner than later. But being our ltv is at 84 ltv it’s the best we could do. Mind you, it’s still not final but here’s hoping for closure. Thanks for the help Keane!

  • Tara,

    Keep fighting them. I have a client who’s doing a HARP loan now with a PNC second and they are approving over 100%, but they are restricting the amount we can raise our loan amount to cover fees.

    That said, we’re well over 80% combined-loan-to-value.

  • tara

    Thanks Keane! I’m just at a loss how to get them to do this. I just recently emailed the executive offices asking them to reconsider but they won’t let me speak to a manager. They just keep telling me it is what it is. So frustrating!! I’ll report back with any further changes in the event it helps others. It’s helpful to know they’re approving others and apparently not following their own policy!

  • Tara,

    Is your request with Key Bank?

  • kellie

    we have a small business that has been hit hard with the economy. very high debt on business cards and personal. I also am on social securty disabilty for parkisons early stage. with small business very little income to show. we have our first with chase $112,000 15 year matures 2021 payment 1972.00 of which over $1500.00 goes to interest. 2nd b of a 100K payment are interest only, 3rd 30k chase. home value $340k per chase credit score mine has highest debt 672 my husband 734..good payment history, high debt. do we go for harp with b of a subordinating which I hear if prior tp 2009 they no longer will, or try for chase mod or enhancement never been late yet..anything to avoid bankruptcy. Most Mortgage brokers say chase will make you jump through hoops just to deny you

  • Kellie,

    B of A may ask you to lower your new loan to minimize the fees added to your new loan but we’ve had great success with HARP loans with B of A subordinating.

  • Kellie,

    Also, a good Chase loan officer should be able to help you get your loan through. I’m going to email you a contact.

  • Nicole

    Have you had any success with Charter One or Citizens Bank subordinating to Well Fargo. We are refinancing through HARP and are waiting for the subordination. We are underwater at about 160%.

  • Nicole

    I mean we are underwater 60%.

  • Nicole,

    I haven’t done one with Charter One or Citizens Bank but most lenders will subordinate these days. The only lender I consistently have troubles with is Suntrust.

    If your loan officer is willing to elevate the issue to get the subordination through, they are often rejected with any lender.

  • Nicole

    Thank you for your response. Canyou please clarify this you stated that most lenders will subordinate and then you posted this response, “If your loan officer is willing to elevate the issue to get the subordination through, they are often rejected with any lender.” I am a bit confused. What do you mean?

  • Nicole,

    I’ll give you an example, not using a company’s name for liability purposes.

    I had a company who refused to approve a subordination for my client. We offered options that CLEARLY showed the loan was beneficial for all parties. We didn’t roll in too many costs, it paid down the balance faster and protected the client from payment shock. Didn’t matter, the company wouldn’t approve it. When we offered to cover all costs to show there was no risk, they still refused.

    We then Googled the company, searching for the emails and contacts of high officials. We then explained in an email, sent to all the parties we could find, that the offer made by our mutual client was beneficial for all parties and if not approved, would be a detriment to all parties. We asked that they reconsider before reporting the issue to our state’s Department of Financial Institutions and to the Consumer Finance Protection Bureau (CFPB). We included the link to the “mortgage complaint” section of the CFPB and told them we did not wish to escalade the issue to a full-blown complaint to the bureau but would if we could not get this resolved. Voila, subordination approved.

    FYI, here’s the link to the CFPB:

  • Debra L Gunnard

    I was one week away from closing on a HARP Loan and Sovereign Bank in Mass will not subordinate my second mortgage. I am stuck. They said that my only option was to pay off the second mortgage and by the way, why don’t you go through us? I did try when the program first came out and they were going to charge me $13,000 in closing costs. I would not recommend Soveriegn Bank to my worst enemy.

  • Debra,

    I’ve been thinking of writing a post on how to get your 2nd subordinated and tips on how to do this. Here’s a few tricks that have worked for us:

    1.) Google the CEO/President/VP’s of the company and see if you can find their email.
    2.) Let them know how badly you need this subordination and how it will benefit all parties
    3.) Let them know that if you can’t get assistance, you’ll be contacting the CFPB for their assistance in the matter

    The CFPB is a new federal agency designed to protect consumers who have issues with financial institutions. This is not a small organization. The bureau encompasses many of the previous government agencies including HUD. Banks do not want to answer to the bureau.

  • Tara O.

    I followed those exact steps and am waiting to hear back. I filed a complaint with CFPB, the company responded saying they won’t consider just because my CLTV is higher now than when the original loan was approved. Yeah, there is a housing market crisis in this country. I filed an appeal for CFPB to get involved and now I’m waiting to hear back but they informed me it could be a lengthy process. Better than the typical no I’ve been receiving from PNC. I’ll let you all know if any resolution is offered.

  • Tara,

    I usually try to escalate the issue before filing a complaint. We’ve had luck getting it through with PNC under those circumstances. It wasn’t easy, but persistence pays off.

  • Tara O.

    I tried appealing, they don’t allow it. I tried speaking to a manner, they don’t allow it. I emailed the entire executive branch, no response. I called and explained that i will be filling a complaint, they said feel free. If filed…they are the most ridiculous lender I’ve ever worked with and sorry my loan ended up with them. they said their policy is that our can’t exceed 89%CLTV, NO EXCEPTIONS. I asked if they’ve tuned on the news lately as there is a mirage crisis inn this country and by maintaining an out of date policy they are discriminating against ant consumer who would otherwise be eligible for HARP or HARP2.

  • Tara,

    That’s too bad. I would also find the DFI for your state (department of financial institutions) and talk to them. Good luck!

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